8th scale motors in SC 4x4's - Is this fair?

It is no surprise that the 4x4 sc classes have grown exponentially, and this year alone we've seen a second surge of newbies to the racing circuits; especially at Hal's. I have thoroughly enjoyed meeting and becoming friends with these new racers. Yet with all the new racers and all the SCT RTR's that has led to this tremendous growth in our off road racing scene; there was a problem becoming more and more evident. Over the last few weeks I've noticed a few people furrowing their eyebrows over a topic that I believe will probably become an issue as racing heats up in El Paso this summer.

For me it all began when I quickly realized my craving for more speed and torque when I was first running a Traxxas Slash 4x4 last year. Although I felt I was doing really well with the Traxxas, I was slowly being left behind by the newer race designed vehicles like the Losi and Assiciated. It wasn't until I purchased my Losi that I was able to unlock my potential as a driver in this class. I now run the Losi TEN SCTE 4x4. Originally, I put in the Havoc Pro with the Ballistic 4.5. This set up was insanely fast, and would run circles around just about anything else that was running at Hal's track. But this only worked for a short time. When I say "short time" i really mean 1 weekend of racing. I remember the night very well, and man was I ready to race. I made all my weekly preparations, charged my race ready 2 cell Lipos, gathered all my things and headed to the races. Needless to say I didn't end up winning that night. My car and it's contents worked flawlessly. It wasn't my driving or a broken part. Hell I couldn't even blame it on bad track conditions or a part trying to fail. So I thought to myself, sometimes you're just not the fastest guy out there. I think we all deal with this, but I wasn't ready to digest what I saw when I went over to congratulate the winner. I saw a masked merauder...and 8th scale buggy acting like a short course truck...? Who'd have thought? It didn't take long for my vehicle to be underpowered again because several other people jumped on the 8scale motor with 14.8V lipo bandwagon. I don't want to delve into whats legal or not for that will open up an entirely different argument, but this class was quickly becoming and for lack of a better word...stupid! You see, I wasn't underpowered in a ROAR legal class specific sense, but could you imagine this? Underpowered with a 550 can running a 2 cell 149$ Lipo with a discharge rate of 50C and a max burst of 100C?? Needless to say, and without mentioning names...lololol; some people felt the need to stick these 8th scale motors into the mix, and suddenly we had some god awful concoction of wheel standing, 80,000 RPM (hyperbole) beast that basically had UNBEATABLE written all over it! So I went home that night with a heavy heart and a mind full of questions. I'm not a whistleblower, so I decided to latch onto the notion of if you can't beat'em join'em.

Jump 1 month ahead....

I will also be the first one to admit that I am now running this type of motor/Battery combo in my Losi. After all, it was very heartbreaking to work on my vehicle during the week, and show up at the track with the hopes of having a level playing field and maybe even pull off a TQ and a win. So, I was quickly caught up in the scandal. But I have to speak my mind here...is this fair? My instant thoughts are Not At ALL! And I know that some of you are really feeling helpless because many of the other companies Like Associated for example do not have the option to run an 8th scale motor or a 4 cell Lipo, so what should we do? If I had to look at the psychology of it all, I would say people really don't buy into the idea that the 4x4 SCT's are a 10th scale vehicle; in all actuality they are more closely related to an 8th scale vehicle in both weight and size. I also know that the class rules state that these 4x4's are in fact considered 10th scale vehicles, and race in classes where rules prevent 1900KV 8th scale motors with 14.8Vlipos. So, it's isn't fair to people who have vehicles like the Associated, which as far as I know, cannot run an 8th scale setup or any other manufacturers' vehicles for that matter. A final thing to think about, and I have spent a lot of time thinking about this is... by mixing a class where the high powered overcharged beasts are allowed to run in the same class as the "legal" versions; could we be killing this class?? Essentially we are making a class that ranges from RTR versions or slightly modified on one end of the continuum to extreme crazy over electrified insane monster garage versions of an SCT on the other. Which honestly, in the hands of a decent driver is virtually unbeatable. So could we be killing this class? Why would anyone want to race in a class where there are 6-7 vehicles that are so much more powerful? C'mon we all have seen those guys who have insane power and not win, but this is ridiculous.

My thoughts on this are that we should split the classes. Allow the 2cell lipo's to run one class, and us crazy zombie powered cars to run in a class of our own.

So feel free to write your comments I'd like to know what everyone feels....

I am looking for a mamba monster because of the same reason but my vote is yeah split the classes.

Wow! That was pretty long. Here are my

With much power comes much responsibility. You can put the baddest 1/8 scale set-up and 4-cell in a losi but will never be able to handle it's full potential at a competitive level. I challenge any losi SCTE driver with a 1/8 scale setup to hit the back double and land on top of the bank after the straight 19-20 times in a 10 min main. And those are the only parts of the track you would benefit with that kind of power. What I'm trying to say I'm planning on finishing on the podium with a 2-cell and a 540 motor. If you ask me we should:

Split up 4wd into sportsman and expert. That way we keep more racers out. I've been in B and C mains and then you see better drivers having fun in the A-main and it's not a cool feeling. A sportsman class will keep new racers around and they can jump into the lions den as they get better.

Adrian,

I agree with most of what you said. Although, if you'd of been there Sat at Hal's for the heat races you would've seen what these puppies are capable of. In the 2nd heat I was racing for first place which I pretty much had, and was taken out in a wreck which gave Efren a big lead. Every single car on the track passed me. I was in last by the time I could get going again. I regained my composure and started catching the field again. There were roughly 7 cars in front of me when I rounded the back left corner. I hit that jump and literally went over about 5 people, landed with no prob and kept going. I was able to go on to a second place finish just seconds behind Efren. I ended up with the TQ because the track was nice and wet for the 1st heat. The only thing that prevents me from jumping like that is the parachute effect the SC bodies have, but with the heavier electronics it becomes less of a problem. With the wind last weekend I did look hilarious way up in the air though. Someone even yelled out, "Who the hell is that?" hahahah. Anyhow, I could do it over and over again if I had to, but I don't. I even did it a few times with my 550 motor to overtake Efren for a win once. But you are correct, it would probably strain the vehicle and break something eventually, but I have jumped it at least 15 times with no prob and landed all of them during a race, so I don't know...

Sorry that it was a long first post, I was just having a moment. See you next week.

That was a long but thoughtful post and i agree it is a great idea to split into sportsman and expert.
I agree. I will bring out a monster too next time i get a free saturday.

Adrian,

You know I've got nothing but love for you, but I may have to slightly disagree with you. I have run just about every motor combo and those 8th scale electronics are insane. I'd say they give a definite advantage throughout the track. Where I see the problems with running this much power is when the track is dry and has little traction. It is then that I notice I can't seem to pull away from people as easily. So the cars running 550's have a better chance of keeping up because the track 'breaks' at a certain level and just about all cars hit the traction limit when the track is dry which more or less nullifies the advantage. This Sat the track was ok for the main not wet but not dry, so my car felt like it had decent traction. Moreover, I'm going to let you drive my car next time and you tell me what you think. Lets go have a beer...this makes for a great topic

I think if a battery limit is imposed (2s), most of the issues stated here would go away. I am guilty of running 1/8 4s combo but no rules at the time allowed me todo so.

It's totally cool. I mean I can see how someone running a slash with a stock velineon system would have a hard time keeping up with a SCTE with a 1/8 scale setup. You're right this is a good topic lol Gino you should look into a Tekin Pro 4 motor. Ask tod to let you take a round in his truck. That truck is stupid fast! Stix I don't think the 1/8 scale set-up can run off 2s . If we go 2s we have to keep it 550 too.

ExcelMarketTX wrote:

It's totally cool. I mean I can see how someone running a slash with a stock velineon system would have a hard time keeping up with a SCTE with a 1/8 scale setup. You're right this is a good topic lol Gino you should look into a Tekin Pro 4 motor. Ask tod to let you take a round in his truck. That truck is stupid fast! Stix I don't think the 1/8 scale set-up can run off 2s . If we go 2s we have to keep it 550 too.

:


That is my point . You solve the 1/8 motor issue. They will run on 2s, problem is they are generally low kv.

Nice If you show up with an 1/8 scale set up and 4s we'll throw you in the buggy class

I run that class too! So that's not an option. I though of something Adrian, remember when we had that good race two weeks ago, well I was running my 3S lipo. I had all the torque in the world but lost top end. Maybe a 3S lipo can be the cut off? I also looked into that Pro 4. It's super nice, but I believe my Ballistic is just as nice, it's the speed control that's giving me the probs. Maybe I'll just buy another speed control and go back to 2S...NOT. lolololololol

I can tell you this...my truck was faster with a 2S and the Novak vs. the 8th scale xcelorin 1700KV and speed control on a 3S battery. My 2S is a racers edge Pro Race with a 60C rating and my 3 cell is also a Racers edge Pro with 50C rating. I'd say that's pretty close, and the ballistic had incredible speed. Especially the top end. I'd easily clear the back jump at Hal's with that set up. Thoughts to grow on...

I think splitting the 2 classes is better. That way some kind of motor limit is set. I think rc in el paso has grown enough to where all classes should adopt some generic rules. I will be the first to admit I have an 8.5 in my 2wd sc but because no one wants to agree on a motor limit I will continue to run it. Look it Onroad racing, the 10.5 motor limit for both sportsman and pro have kept the competition close. And everyone is willing to help everyone with setup so that we all can be on the same pace. It really comes to down driver and setup in the races. And it is good to know that not one person has an unfair advantage over the other at least motor and battery wise.

I don't race this class, but have some experience with the hobby and what helps it maintain or continue to grow. I believe in keeping the hobby headed in the right direction for everyone to enjoy, one of two things would need to happen as previously mentioned. Splitting the class into Sportsman and Expert would assist in solving the presented issue, but would create another class. I would imagine, with as many vehicles that have shown up for that class, Hal's would have no issue with any proposed idea and recommend the interested parties would bring to their attention. Hope its able to be resolved and racers continue to enjoy the rc hobby.

There is no advantage to running 8th scale stuff. A good driver can win with either, it’s just driver preference that counts. It all depends on how you like your power to weight ratio. I personally prefer the lighter more agile 10th scale stuff.

Most guys who race are over powered anyway. It all depends on putting the power down to the ground. I’ve heard this a ton of times. “I’m running a blah. 5 motor, but I had to dial down my radio.” ha ah aha!!

Now as far as breaking up the classes, I understand both sides, being a racer first I like to win, so at first I want a sprotsmans or intemediate class to enjoy some wins, but then I think if I race I wanna beat the best…so I wanna race the best. Plus if you have different classes then you race against fewer racers. I love racing in a stacked main.

As far as RP is concerned we have and always will consider novice for kids, rookies and the different mains are for the differnent skill levels. Think of the A-main as being first in expert, and the B-C being sportsman, intemediate.

I think what El Paso needs most is classes/structure/club rules that are consistant across all tracks. This would benefit all that race(consistent classes, motors, batteries, cars etc) and all that might race.

At this point we need to form an area club. I have watched racing grow from a backyard track and hal's to competing large tracks and on road. We do well with rules/sportsman class in on road. There is a stock SC class at hals. What needs to grow is the novice/spec class and slowly get people involved not give them 4S rocket ships. Its just not good for the longevity of the newbie to break stuff all the time.

The draw backs are how long it takes to run the races period anywhere so far. Splitting the classes means a whole other main and heats. IMHO, a spec class is the way to go. It keeps costs down, your favorite hobby shop can support the parts no matter where you shop, anyone can be competitive, and have fun.

I think we all are getting somewhere finally. How about we throw some ideas to get it going? I'm not to familiar with 4x4 but here's my input for 2wd sc. A 10.5 motor limit,2 cell Lipo ,open esc

Plus one on spec class... HPI or Traxxas?

Spec class wise I would say Slash. The sure can take a beating. Service is great with the ESCs and motors can be had cheap...

For all you running 1/8th scale stuff in the sc 4x4 class. i think its cheesy you all running 4s 3s or whatever. If you went to a Roar race that wouldnt even fly. John still kick tail with his traxxazz 2s battery 550 novak. I really dont care if you gotta cheat with your motors and stuff as long as John,Wes and me have a good close race im happy. Hals should crack down on the 1/8th scale stuff in the sc10 4x4 class. Just my opinions guys dont take it as a personal attack. I love racing.. win or lose

It's great to see everyone has thoughts on the topic. Nice topic Gino. In regards to 2wd Hal's already splits up the SC trucks into Stock and Expert. We've been talking about spec slash forever and it may eventually take off. I think the idea a sportsman (2s and 550 can limit) and outlaw(4s and 1/8 scale) classes for 4x4 is great!

Robert it's so funny because its true! I think we are all dreading the day John decides to step it up with a SC10 4x4

I think Johns gonna get a sc10 4x4 here shortly. Im trying my best to talk him out of it .. We have to many classes now at hals takes way to long. Maybe start at 9am.. Im game for a two classes in the sc 4x4 class keep the 2s together fair and square..

We can split Classes in a thousand pieces but, until Hals regulates Motors, esc, Batteries etc.... it will still be Unfair for the Racers with no so Deep Pockets.... I think 2s limit is the answer... that way you can run anything u already have....and not have to sell it...
If you Insist on Running 1/8th set up , Run with the 1/8th Electric Buggy and Truggys !!!! Dont add another Class , that will only get us Home 1 hour later... !!!!

sounds like a reasonable solution or, throw them in with the 8thscale eletric lol

I'm going to run my ZX5 with the E-buggies! LOL nuff said